It all started with a thought-provoking Facebook update by my friend, Lon Alderman:
“Lon Alderman thinking about all of the stuff written about “success”, and wondering how it all stacks up against (Mark 10:43-45)”
“Lon Alderman thinking about all of the stuff written about “success”, and wondering how it all stacks up against (Mark 10:43-45)”
What followed was equally thought-provoking and powerful, a discussion about “success and leadership” raising BIG questions and our humble but heart-felt answers through dialogue. We believe these questions and our dialogue are of value to others. We hope it provokes you to rethink your definitions of success, of leadership and of what your daily living is all about. I trust it will further enrich your search to live at The Intersection of Purpose and Now. As Lon Alderman writes: “real sharpening happens when people speak the truth in love with one another.”
Below is the discussion thread that ensued, which both Lon and I are posting on our respective blogs. It begins with brief comments from others, then I enter as the voice of “trouble-maker”. Lon takes it in it’s best direction at 1:26 p.m. on July 1 and later Alistair takes us on a helpful turn. You will find Lon’s excellent blog at Daily Build Up. Lon provides an outstanding devotional guide, among other benefits that make his blog one of my favorites.
Mark 10:43-45 (NIV)
43Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Lon thinking about all of the stuff written about “success”, and wondering how it all stacks up against (Mark 10:43-45)
Tim
Intersection of Purpose and Now 
Lon at 12:45pm July 1
John at 12:49pm July 1
Lon at 1:00pm July 1
Mark at 1:16pm July 1
Even well-meaning Christians tend to measure “success” by who they are
ministering to, rather how they are ministering by… Show me a church that doesn’t measure success with the amount of people in the pews and offering in the plates.My experience is that there is actually a great deal of Christian wisdom at work in modern “success” literature. Even some of the “wealth” literature is really about discovering God’s purpose for you and pursuing it with fervor and faith. There are many exceptions, of course, but “one bad apple don’t spoil the whole bunch”. (Amway, a professed “Christian” business has certainly gone astray, for example. Another example of “if heaven is like church, who wants to go there?”) Mark at 1:24pm July 1
I must decide by listening to God how to actively share my faith. Preaching seldom works – people are better watchers than listeners. The best of the success literature helps people, albeit in typically secular terms, to understand every good thing they want to have, do and become, to purify their beliefs in pursuit of success and measure it in the currencies of peace, fulfillment, happiness, service to others, as well as money.
We must measure success literature with the Bible as our standard. If there is no need to write or read anything beyond the Bible, why are we on Facebook?
Lon at 1:26pm July 1Mark at 1:37pm July 1
I’m offering an answer to your implied question: “How does all the ‘success’ stuff stack up against Mark 10:43-45?” More and more, it stacks up fairly well and in many cases the stuff is human expression in pursuit of understanding God, who surpasses our understanding (we all fall short of Christ).
Of course, if it weren’t for our Fall, we wouldn’t be searching for understanding God or “success” in the first place!
As for recommendations for a “definitive” work – great request. I’m not sure if I have such a recommendation at the tip of my tongue. Partly, because so much of what I read I consider to be “success” literature, from John Eldredge and Mark Batterson to Napoleon Hill and Lance Secretan. (I LOVE Eldredge and Batterson)
The aggravating thing I find, and I actually think this may be true to the original point you were making, is how so many authors disguise their beliefs and questions in “new age-y” language, or their doubts about the reality of God are so deep they don’t recognize how closely their other beliefs are directly supportive of His Word. Lance Secretan’s “One” is a good example of this, and I highly recommend it. Steven Covey’s “7 Habits” is another example, although he and many others would say he is a Christian – or the same as.
but on success… shift the paradigm
http://www.facesandvoicesofrecovery.org/
It’s interesting that it seems all of us make a direct link between success and leadership. This is a connection I help my clients make in the first session of any leadership or other development program. It generally requires personal leadership to achieve success. Formal leadership is dependent on personal leadership. And yes, one of the surest signs of potential leadership is indeed “followership”, something that an activity called “helium hoop” quickly and effectively demonstrates through experiential learning. Simply put, the best leaders know when to lead, follow or get out of the way.
If one day the pastors were all removed, and one day I hope they are, what would they do without that ‘leadership’. pastors should be working themselves out of a job, and the people ought to be moving toward that goal.. by becoming more themselves in a full relationship with God and man. Success IMHO is not about numbers or goods its about my conscience and its relationship with God.. rich or poor
Likewise, I think we too easily limit the concept of leadership in binary, dichotomous concepts like “leader” and “followers”.
Ultimately, there are leaders and there are not leaders, and we all play either role at various times. Ultimately, when the church is full of leaders, I think we will still need pastoring, but we’ll all be ministers. The healthiest churches are ones that would still thrive and grow with or without a directing pastor, just like the starfish.
at the minute i’m thinking this…
http://emergingscotland.ning.com/group/thextians/forum/topics/who-are-these-xtians?page=1&commentId=2882481%3AComment%3A4164&x=1#2882481Comment4164
http://www.purposeandnow.com/2009/06/formula-for-well-being.html
Lon at 10:43pm July 1
Oh, and the subject is pretty enjoyable, too! For me, the key to this question of success and leadership boils down the metric we use for determining success. Once established, this will determine the nature of leadership.
So, if success is a relationship with Jesus the Christ, then leadership is guiding people into said relationship. This is my bias regarding success, but the world says, “But that won’t feed the family!”.
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is… (Romans 12:2)
Mark at 11:10pm July 1Oddly enough, I still find these conclusions troubling. I define success as “The continual achievement of your own predetermined goals, stabilized by balance and purified by belief,” so my relationship with Christ certainly fits but many other lesser things fit as well. Success is not an event, it’s continual, so accepting a relationship with Christ would be successful, but the continuing pursuit of my relationship with him much better and purifying.
Leadership? I think the problem is in how we measure it. I don’t think leadership is measured by what I do, even it it’s guiding people to Christ. It is measured by what those who would follow me do, at their own discretion, having followed me. I bring more people into relationship with Christ by living as “salt and light” than by passing out tracts.
Finally, “Earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can (to Acorn Ministries).” John Wesley
Lon at 9:42am July 2G’night.
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. (Proverbs 3)
When I claim success as achieving MY goals, then where is God? Could “success” as you’ve defined it become a god?
I believe that God is not interested in my work; rather, it is my devotion and relationship with Jesus that matters. I’m not anti-planning, but I do recognize that it is not my achievement that God desires.
21″Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Matthew 7)
Mark at 10:04am July 2Well, good morning, my friend! This is very helpful in my exploration of the whole topic of success and leadership. I think we have a point of disagreement, but much different than you state.
I’ve always been fascinated by an Einstein quote: “I want to know God’s thoughts, all the rest are details.” Not literally, or exactly, or in any way do I mean to “limit” God, but in a way I believe that if we allow our wants to be God’s want, He does leave a lot of the “details” to us.
We get things turned around, though. We too often want to determine and prioritize the big thoughts – our dreams, wants, goals, missions, etc. – then pray that God will take care of the details. This separates us from God, and success becomes more about us and less about God.
If you have made it this far with us, you may want to join our conversation. Please add your comments to The Intersection of Purpose and Now!